Governor A.B. Chandler

Inominate Society
Date:     December, 1973


Dr. Hume: ...Give you a brief background as to why Iím here.  Itís more or less a personal thing.  This trip arose out of a paper that Iím trying to get together on more or less the history of Kentucky medicine, going way back and coming up a little more recently than some of the other ones... papers have.  I think there was a big W.P.A. paper back in 1940 on the history of Kentucky medicine mad into a book, and I like, really to use this for some talks that Iím going to give in the Louisville area to various medical meetings and then If I can get it together in the form of a paper for the (           ) Journal which is the stationary on which I wrote you.


Gov. Chandler:     Sure.


Dr. Hume:     That will be fine.  My background is just, really though, as a private physician interested in Kentucky medicine.


Gov. Chandler:  Sir, where do you practice?


Dr. Hume:     I practice in Louisville.  Iím a surgeon, Iím second or third generation Kentucky doctor.  Just to give you my background, I am the editor of the (               ) Journal, which is sort of part-time job, but, went to school in Louisville, and away to school...to med school at Harvard and came back here and stayed up here and did (         ) for a while... and came back here and ...you knew, I guess, a distant cousin of mine, Edgar Erskin, whoís...


Gov. Chandler:     Very Well.


Dr. Hume:  ...over in Frankfurt, and an uncle of mine whoís in politics in the Republican house here.  That was (        ) Hume.


Gov. Chandler:     Oh sure, oh sure.


Dr. Hume:     So that was my uncle and my dad...


Gov. Chandler:     What is your middle name?


Dr. Hume:     Walter, Walter Hume.  My dad was a surgeon...


Gov. Chandler:     Walter, and where were you born?


Dr. Hume:     I was born in Louisville.


Gov. Chandler:     In Louisville.


Dr. Hume:     Yes, and our family came out of Washington County, a while back, so weíve been around these parts long enough for my curiosity about things in Kentucky and especially medicine in Kentucky to be fairly high.  There are a lot of people...have done a lot more study on it than I have, and so Iím really using this as a learning experience for me to try to get together some information and figure out whatís going on.  I know, because I started to do this some years ago.  I know that you had a close relative...and I think it was a brother of yours and he was quite ill at one time or another, and then that you had your interest in medicine personally involved.  And beyond that, I donít know the details, and I would like to just sort of throw it open to you and I have some...two or three little questions here, but basically maybe you could give me your background of how you were involved and how you saw the development of the medical school at U.K.


Gov. Chandler:     Yes, well my interest in medicine in Kentucky, of course, started in my childhood, and the nearly total absence of well-trained and well-educated doctors was apparent to me when my brother fell out of a cherry tree and broke his neck in 1914 in Edison County between (     ) and Edison City and there wasnít any doctor that knew anything much about it, and he died in a week and I was convinced...


Dr. Hume:     How old was he...


Gov. Chandler:     ...14 and I was always convinced and still am that if theyíd had some medical...proper medical attention that he would have lived, cause otherwise he was rugged, and then my second brother graduated with honors from the medical school at the University of Louisville years later.  This is years later, in the 40ís, and he was interning at Balls State Hospital in (         ) and they undertook to operate on him for tonsils.  He never had been sick I his life, and they gave him (         ) and he died on the operating table in 3 minutes.  Of course these doctors were (       ) and (        ), and they called me and we talked at some length about...I was the commissioner of (          ) then. Iíd already served as lieutenant governor of Kentucky and of course the doctors were good men and they did not know that he was allergic to this (          ) but he was, and they failed to make the proper test which would have shown it, and of course we had to tell my father and broke his heart.  Of course, this was the smartest boy we produced in my family.  We have three boys and one girl and this fellow was the smartest of all of us, and so my interest in public health sure goes back to my boyhood days in Edison County.  And then of course in 1929 I was elected to the state senate of this district.  I had graduated from law school after going to Harvard and the University of Kentucky and over Transylvania, the first college west of Allegheny Mountains.  I came here in 1922 to coach the football team and teach school and to undertake the practice of law, and so I went to the state senate from this 22nd district.  In 1930, I was elected in 29, in the district that was comprised of Scott and Woodford and Jefferson Counties, and when I went to the state senate, I met Dr. McCormack, Dr. Arthur McCormack...


Dr. Hume:     ...a very impressive man...


Gov. Chandler:     Dr. McCormack gave me the finest compliment I have ever gotten and I...you never forget the finest compliment you ever get, if you get good compliments, and of course Iíve always judged that to be the finest one, and he made to me...he said he wished I could be governor every other time as long as I lived, and he knew that if I was the governor that public health would have high priority, as it out to have had...always ought to have had and I say I learned that in childhood and it was Dr. Arthur McCormack and his father who were the commissioners of public health in Kentucky for 70 years continuously, and I used to tell the people when they asked me where the department of health was, and I said, that it was in Dr. Arthur McCormackís pocket.  Well whichever pocket...if he changed clothes, and changed suits...well the department of health went along with it.  Dr. McCormack you may remember, that Dr. Milton Board had the Whipping Bill in the 1930 state legislature to take the Health Department away from Dr. McCormack, and his associates...and along with my friend Dan Tolbert of Bardstown who was a druggist, and who was Dr. McCormackís friend, and whoís very skillful in politics...heís got a grandson now thatís a lawyer with a Middletown firm out Louisville, and...this is J. Dan Tolbert who live in Nelson County, and he and Dr. McCormack were good friends and as a member of the state senate I helped beat that bill and help keep Dr. Board and his fellows from passing what they called the Health Board Ripper, which would have ripped the health department much in the fashion that this fellowís doing it now under a different guise, and I hate to se this coming back because no good can come of it, and no good is intended to come in my opinion from it the way theyíre reattempting to reorganize the health department.  But Dr. McCormack faced this task...he was a fighter, and knew in my opinion more about the public health...and the two things that he and I fought for all the time were...he wanted to help the department in every county, and strange as it may seem, my county was the last one.  This little county here.  It was 20th, of course this county is fortunately well off, and the well off get well-to-do counties who thought theyíd advise their own affairs and didnít need any health department.  They thought they could take care of their own, as theyíre apt to do and then not do as theyíre...yeah...well anyways, we were the last ones to get a county health department.  That was one of Dr. McCormackís great ambitions, and I helped him get it...and another thing...one of his great ambitions was to have tuberculosis hospitals so we could rid the country of the threat and the deep concern that all of us had for tuberculosis.  It was quite a disease in the early days after the start of the century as you doctors all know, and Dr. McCormack was an unusual character because he knew,...he knew...every one of our budgets...he knew how much money I had in each one of them, and if I didnít give this money to him form my emergency funds and others, he made me feel like I killed so many people.  He played on my like a fool, because he knew my great concern and it was genuine, for the help of all our people, and he called me ďsonnyĒ and Dr...Dr., the old doctor down at Glasgow...


Dr. Hume:     C.C. Howard.


Gov. Chandler:     Dr. Howard...Dr. Howard called me ďBoyĒ, and heíd call me ďboyĒ when I was governor the second time, and heíd come into my office and say ďBoy, I want to talk to you about somethingĒ and Iíd say, ďoh, what, Dr. C.C. what do you want.Ē  It was Dr. Howard that...and your humble servant,...and I think he was mainly responsible for it, but I helped him...get up the country medical scholarship bill and I helped him with the money to find country boys who agreed to go to medical school and be educated and the go back into the counties from which they have come and help contribute to the health of their people, I think that was one of the finest things that ever occurred to anybody, and I say as far as I know Dr. Howard was mainly responsible for that in Kentucky...Dr. McCormack kept track of our budgets, and he was as genuine and determined and as sociable and always interested in public health and the public welfare of the people of Kentucky, and so he had a fellow in congress that helped him a great deal too at that time; Fred Vincent, and Fred Vincent arranged, who later was Chief Justice of the United States...Fred Vincent used to help...he used to drag on Fred Vincent and drag on me to get everybody because I say, he got on me like a fool...he got all my money that I could possibly afford and sometimes I thought more than I ought to give him, but the alternative was go home at night with the feeling that that day I killed some young people.  I couldnít hardly stand it.  But Dr. Arthur McCormack...and then when we built the new health building which is at Frankfurt now...I saw to it that it was named for him, and I thought that was proper because as I say for 70 years, Dr. Arthur McCormack and his father had done more than anybody else to look out for the public health, and public welfare.  Now, then we also undertook to build these tuberculosis hospitals and I helped him with those, and helped him dedicate them and he...he did an unusual thing.  Every now and then some folks stopped me on the street, and thanked me for something that I didnít know I had done, and when I questioned him, heíd say, Dr. McCormack told me to thank you because (         ) put up the money to help have his operation, which as I recall, I learned later that they took out maybe a rib or two and first thing you know the fellow was all right.  He didnít have the tuberculosis anymore.  I didnít understand it like he did, but he used to try to explain it to me that...absolutely, and he told me then what later developed that the doctors, through research and through great knowledge learned to control the larger of the tuberculosis and (        )


Dr. Hume:     You had little trouble...


Gov. Chandler:     Very little trouble with that now.  Well he told me that thing would come about, and Iíve always said this.  This is from my own experience.  Iíve said that the fellows in the profession do what they can...in the several professions...by education and by research and by diligence to discover the secrets that men are able to discover through research.  Modern medicine is not over a hundred years old.  I expect that about...fifty years...about modern medicine...I think it has to be said that during that time doctors have outstripped all the other fellows in finding ways and means to combat the diseases and the things from which people suffer and have made the maximum and the greatest contribution to the alleviation of pain and the longevity of the lives of our people.  Thatís my observations of it.  Now, when I went back to the governors place the second time in 1955, course Dr. Arthur was gone, but Dr. Howard was still there of course and they mounted quite a campaign in Louisville...and the doctors...there largely the doctors from the University of Louisville Medical establishment against the building of that center.  That not only distressed me, but it alarmed me, and I thought they didnít distinguish themselves and so Dr. Howard called me up one day and came in my office to see me and he said ďBoy, how serious are you about this medical center at the university?Ē  ďWellĒ, I said, ďDr. Howard, you know that Iím generally sober and serious about anything I undertake.  I have a feeling that this ought to be done because, ď I says, ďI know this.  In the United States last year 15,000 young men, otherwise qualified and who wanted to be doctors had to be turned aside because there was no place for them in the medical schools in the United StatesĒ and I said, ďI think thatís a great pity.  In 1949, this is 55 now, 5000 babies were born in Kentucky to Kentucky mothers without the attendance of a doctor at the birth of the child in Kentucky andĒ I said, ďunfortunately a great many of the children died, butĒ I said, ďworst than that too many of the mothers died, andĒ I said, ďI think in 1955, I think thatís a great tragedyĒ.  In 16 counties in Kentucky weíve got no dentists, and I think we need more doctors, and more nurses and more dentists, and of course they fought me tooth and nail over the whole thing and I was just absolutely astounded, but Dr. Howard, when I finished my conversation with him.  His question was ďBoy, how serious are you about this medical center?Ē  And when I convinced him that I was serious all he said to me was, ďAll right boy, Iím not going to fight you.Ē  And he turned, put his hat on, left my office and he didnít fight me.  And I followed him and Dr. McCormack both as far as you can all the way to the cemetery, and I loved them both very much and respected them both very much and so if Dr. Howard had fought me...I say he was a saint...he administered to the health of the people in his country there above and beyond the call of ordinary duty...Dr. McCormack did the same thing...I never could understand it.  I never was surprised by the people who were in charge of the medical school at the University and their associates and wherever they could influence.  They even to the paper, the paper was against it.  And they made...they made quite a fight.


Dr. Hume:     How did the idea come about in the first place.  Where...from where did it arise?  Was it really your idea or was it...or just an...


Gov. Chandler:     No, no we had a survey made showing conditions in the Kentucky...especially the eastern Kentucky.  The eastern Kentucky was just deserted from the standpoint of satisfactory health services, medical services, and I know one little county over here, Robertson, that had one doctor.  Well maybe thatís all it needed at that time cause there were only 2500 people in the county, but the ratio might have been higher there (              ) but there was only one doctor in Robertson county, and in several of the other counties there were one or two...or...not any more than that, and in 16 counties no dentists, and I knew about all those things.  I...we had that survey made and Arnold Hanger, a great friend of mine, who still lives in Miami, financed that study, that research.  He still lives in Miami, Florida and heís from Richmond, and of course, it seemed to me the University of Louisville Medical Center was doing quite well.  It was a good school, but it was in Louisville, and the west...and nothing up there.


Dr. Hume:     Was there any group in Lexington that was really primarily interested in getting it going?


Gov. Chandler:     Yes, I think Dr. Massey was, Dr. Francis Massey, and Dr. Brick Chambers and a man named Steve Watkins whoís an engineer and a graduate of the University and a man named Dr. Colman Johnston, and a man named Dr. Fred Rainkins and Iím sure all those fellows all...Francis Masseyís a saint and we love him very much and heís always looked out for me and my family and Fred Rainkens is one of my closest and best friends and I talked to all of them and they said to build it and put if over there, and in connection with the university then you can train doctors and then of course after I made plans to ask the legislature which I did, I asked them for $5,000,000 appropriations in 1956.  I went there the second time in December of 55, and I asked them for the appropriations (            ).  But we were able to get the appropriation.  The thing cost, give or take a little bit about 28 to 30 million dollars.  It costs 300,000,000, I expect now.  Of course, nobody will question it now about the wisdom of building it there, and I paid for it, indeed Iím not trying to...self-praise is half scandal, you understand, and so Iím not trying...Iím not running for anything...so doctor...Iím just trying to read the thing to you as it was, as it happened...


Dr. Hume:     Iím interested in hearing it.


Gov. Chandler:     I paid for it, built it and paid for it with the help of the money I got from the federal government as I did everything else that I ever did for the people of Kentucky while I was there, and I tried to soften the blow as far as the University of Louisville was concerned by making arrangements to give them money for research, which was prohibited in the constitution because itís a state university...I mean itís a municipal university and I have no authority to contribute peopleís money to anything except tax supported institutions, and I tried...this is a long story too.  I tried to get the University of Louisville to come into the state system, but they wouldnít do it, and...


Dr. Hume:     Who was Dean then, Iíve forgotten.


Gov. Chandler:     I have too.  Anyway itís too late now, but it was not a wise decision.  Hey paid a frightful, doctor, to be a municipal university...it was the oldest one in this country, but the tax base was not broad enough to enable them to support what they wanted to do, and I told them, I said your fighting a losing battle and Iím not the smartest fellow in the world but I saw that a long time ago.  And I said to them come into the state system, they later came in, not a good time, for them, and resulted in this whole country boy system (               ) but if they had come in while I was there, I could have arranged for them to come over on a proper basis and theyíd have saved time and money.  They were losing their professors, because itís just as natural for fellows who could get more money someplace else to leave you and thereís not much sentiment about it...they leave you and go someplace else...Iíve learned that...at the university. The rest of the university...it wasnít easy there either, because the other professors thought that if I built the medical center tat all those fellows would suffer, that they wouldnít be well paid, and the first thing I did, I got Dean Willard to come and build that school.


Dr. Hume:     Now were you instrumental in having him come?


Gov. Chandler:     I hand carried him.


Dr. Hume:     How did you know him?


Gov. Chandler:     Well, Dean La Parre of Yale told be about it.  Dean La Parre, the Dean of the Medical School at Yale University told me about him and mom and I went to Europe in 1957 on the boat with Dean La Parre and his wife, and he told me...he said heíd be on top of any five lists, that you would get, and if you donít get him, he said, tear up the lists and start all over again.  Now he was in Syracuse.  And I got Willard to come down, and I offered Willard $22,000.  Well, the president only got 12.  And so I called the president into the (                ) outside of the trustees room there and said ďFrank, Frank Vicky,Ē I said, ďI have to give you $22,500.Ē  ďWell,Ē he said, ďGovernor, I donít know how Iím going to justify that,Ē I said, ďYou donít have to, I will.Ē  I said, because I have the idea that the president ought to get the most money.  I guess that may be a foolish idea but I said if two men want to ride a horse, one of them got to ride in the truck.  Now, I said Iíve agreed to pay Willard...I agreed to pay him $22,000.  Now Donovan and I got Willard together (          ) president of the university (        ) Dean La Parre of Yale recommended him and later he said this at the first commencement, and Iíll never forget this.  He said, ďexcept for the promises and commitments made to me by Governor Chandler,Ē and I was sitting on the platform, ďall of which were kept better than he said, I wouldnít be here.Ē  He had a good job in Syracuse.  I got him to come and got him...paid him the $22,000...and offered to pay and did pay for moving Mrs. Willardís furniture.  I said you tell her I said so.  Anyways that was as good a thing as ever happened to us because Bill Willard...and I also told him this...I said, ďI know how to build a medical center...I want one properly built and staffed and they told me you know how to do it,Ē I said, ďIíll tell you what Iíll do, Iíll not interfere with you in any way during the time Iím there and I can commit myself through 1959,Ē and I said ďIíll not interfere with you in any way and Iíll not permit anyone else to if I know about it and I said ďyou have absolute authorityĒ so from the time we built the ground until we had the first commencement building Bill Willard said freely that nobody interfered with him.


Dr. Hume:     Now politically, how did that school get off the ground.  You were on the board of the university.


Gov. Chandler:     Oh, I was chairman of the board, the governorís the chairman of the board and I was chairman twice.   But politically it caused me to lose the governorís race.  I lost the governors race in 63 on account of that.  They held it against me.  Well Louisville is such a big city.  Oh, itís a third of the population and combs was elected governor, but they kept me out of it in 63...that was all right.  I was governor twice.  I didnít have to be governor another time.  But I got this...


Dr. Hume:     You think this was really...one of the...


Gov. Chandler:     Oh...the main thing.  I got 263,000 votes in that primary, and that will win all the governors primaries from 1792 until now except that one.  So with the Courier Journal and all of its resources and the University of Louisville...almost the doctors without exception, the doctors almost without exception set out to punish me...and they had a hard time.  I got Dr. Done to come down here from...whoís head of the medical center at Ohio State University...and I had a great party for him one night and invited them all to come in, but Iíve conveniently forgotten most of those fellows down there, because they never did unbend.  I mean I donít want to remember them because it donít do me any good to remember, but I invited them all to come and have Dr. Done talk to them, and Dr. Done was one of the finest men that Iíve ever encountered in my life and he told them how absolutely silly and stupid they were...to be opposed to this medical center.  He told them with as straight a talk as he could give them, and it did some good, but how much I donít know, but they took him a long time, and Iím not sure, I say that theyíre even reconciled now...because I never got any good support down there after that, and they are the doctors who are influential.


Dr. Hume:     ...more of a threat...I wasnít here at the time, but it was much more of a threat than I thought.


Gov. Chandler:     Oh yes, oh yes.  I thought I was fighting the second battle of the (               ) and I was so shocked and surprised because when your undertaking something for the public welfare, it doesnít occur to you that theyíll be people, even though thereís nothing in the world wrong with it, and it ought to be done, and it ought to be done quickly, and it should have been done before.  There are people who still fight you back, and they donít want you to do it and they donít want it done.


Dr. Hume:     Was there a fair percentage of the profession, of the medical profession outside of Jefferson County that was against it?


Gov. Chandler:     Unfortunately for me, most of the influence from the doctors comes from Louisville Medical School outside.


Dr. Hume:     Well, of course most of them are graduates.


Gov. Chandler:     Thatís right and they put on quite a contest.  They made quite a thing of it.  And I say with exception of Dr. Howard and a few fellows, oh boy, anytime Iíd encounter a fellow and he was a doctor from...that is Francis Massey, and fellows like that who are from Virginia, I mean who graduated from Virginia (         ) Fred Rainkin who didnít graduate from Louisville School, you know (              ) son-in-law, well those fellows...no trouble about them, they were all fine, but all the dire predictions that they made about first destroying that school and second about destroying the university because of what it would do to the professors in the other departments there, in the departments of education, and so forth.  Well actually it (           ) and of course the school now...of course then after I made arrangements to build a medical center and have them educate doctors, they were determined not to have a dental school, and so they fought that too.  Well the dental school after ten years, impartial observers now...are impartial people whose business it is to decide the proper rank for a dental school rank this dental school third in the whole country.  After ten years.


Dr. Hume:     I was going to ask you one of my little questions.  Has the medical school fulfilled your expectations.


Gov. Chandler:     Exceeded...done better...infinitely better than I ever had any idea they could do in ten years, itís only ten years, and now they have...oh they have 2000 or 2500 applications and the tenth class next year will probably be 110, 114 or something, and theyíve just done a fantastic job and theyíve got doctors over here that are just out of this world.  Theyíve got the most skillful doctors and theyíve got the most sophisticated equipment.  And then the government came along and built the veterans hospital adjacent to it and thatís the last work.  Iíve been through that and of course I was chairman of the medical center board too, you know, as a member of the board of the trustees.  This little stupid governor took me off, whoís...heís an eight grade drop out from Yellow Creek and seems to be prouder of that than anything else, but I donít get paid for that down here.  It had to be a little thing you know, and of course I still keep my end in and the president made me a member of the athletic board and I still visit with him.  He doesnít go over there though, and when he was sick he went to Houston and so that wasnít a great trip a took, was it.  When I get sick...if my family gets sick we go over there, and of course heís not going to ever to be able to walk.  Iím not a fly by night fellow.  My cousin (        ) engineer school of the university for 20 years and, the board of six them, so I didnít just start to have an interest in the university you know...and of course this, I say, this stupid fellow, he took himself off too, but, my god I donít blame him, because he didnít have anything to contribute anyways.  He was an eight grade drop out over there you know, and so I donít imagine that he was in much shape to make of a contribution to it, but that was just purely a stupid thing, because I said I donít get paid for that, but...


Dr. Hume:     Didnít I see that you know, out in Louisville(           ) didnít I see that they took your name off the medical center (       ) put it back on.


Gov. Chandler:     No, no they never took it off.


Dr. Hume:     What was this...there was a change of something in there...that was always on...


Gov. Chandler:     No, no well the board of trustees, Bob Hobson did that...Bob Hobsonís from Louisville.  Bob Hobson was...his father was Judge Hobson...the Kentucky court of appeals...they were all from Virginia.  I put Bob on the board up here and Bob Hobson was a distinguished gentleman and was on the board for quite a while, and I think some other stupid governor took him off.  He had no business taking him off cause as I say he made a magnificent contribution to it, and Bobís father was the justice of the supreme court of the commonwealth...was the kid that walked 8 or 10 miles in the dust, after the war between the states and sat on the front porch of General Lee at Lexington, Virginia, and General Lee was sitting there in a rocker and he said ďWhat do you want son.Ē  He said, ďI just came to look at you.Ē  And General lee said ďAll rightĒ he said, ďGo ahead and look.Ē  So when he got his looking over he got out off the porch and traveled back to the country on the dusty road and went back home.  He had seven or eight of the finest stalwart mannered fellows that you ever saw, but I say he had seven or eight fine sons who were all over his commonwealth, and itís a great family you know, and of course when a fellow hasnít got any better sense than to try to hurt an institution because he donít approve of some fellow...thatís silly enough, I donít have to answer for that you know.  He took himself off too, which I thought was silly, even though heís maybe not in a position to (             ) doesnít know anything about it and didnít want to be concerned with it, but this fellow whoís the governor now hadnít been governor but half the time since he was elected.  Lieutenant Governorís been governor half the time...and thatís it, but listen I couldnít care less, you understand, but they elected him, but I imagine they elected him to be governor, but the Lieutenant governorís served half the time already, and I think heís running for something else now.  But anyway thatís neither here not there.  The people in Lexington and eastern Kentucky embraced it...a great many fellows know it, I mean, the doctors, they know it, and theyíre not as...but they were violent in their opposition to it, Dr. Hume.  Now, as I say I was shocked and surprised, and all I said to them was...I said, forgive them father, I said, they know not what they do, and I said I feel sorry for them, and I told them, I said...I made a speech down there once later, and I said, I donít think you distinguished yourselves in this fight...I said I donít think you ought to fight a medical center and a medical school.  You might not approve of it and you donít have to approve it, it didnít cost you anything, but I paid for it, and thatís unusual because they donít pay for anything anymore, you know.


Dr. Hume:     I know that U.K. Medical School has the fond spot in your heart, but if you look at the situation now, now U. of L. Medical...U. of L.ís going to become a state school, do you think there is a chance for them to get up to paradigm again.


Gov. Chandler:     I donít think thereís any question about it, if they can conduct themselves so that they...I donít think that they can escape it.  I donít think anybody would have any wish or desire not to put them up there, and if they come in when Dr. Done and I was trying to get them to do it then why, there wouldnít have been any discrimination against them and I say I was the first governor that ever undertook to go out of his way to help them beyond the call, you know, and it wasnít that anybody wanted to do anything (          ) health of the people in Louisville and western Kentuckyís just as important as it is up there...so I wouldnít make any distinction between people who are sick you understand.


Dr. Hume:     The state has resources to carry two big schools?


Gov. Chandler:     Well, we always have had...we always have had.  While this man wastes enough money in one six months...well recently he said...had 140,000,000 dollars surplus and didnít know what to do with it.  Well, what do you do with $140,000,000.  Of course you oughtnít to have any surplus in the first place.  State government surpluses...this is a horrible thing, and all my lifetime, in two administrations of governor, and the record will show, we lived within our income, we under-spent our budget.  We refinanced the state debt that we had and we re-organized the government, and we just didnít conduct it this way, and in 1959 when we left there, we didnít worry about anything.  Now, weíre over two million dollars.  This is a silly thing, and then when you claim then you havenít got enough money to look out for the reasonable expense of health and welfare and education, well thatís just not so.  Itís just what you do with your money.  You put out money in the proper place, put out money where itís suppose to go in order to do...thatís what Dr. McCormack said.  He knew every amount I had, every budget that I had, and he knew how much use I was going to need, when I was going to need it, and what time it was going to come due, and if I didnít need that money then I had it stashed away there someplace, while he wanted to use it until such time as I need it for whatever I was suppose to have it for, and he got most of it too...and I say (               ) I wish you could be governor every other time, as long as you live.  Well he didnít want me to be governor just because to make Chandler governor, he knew that I had at heart the health of our people, and what it took to help the people as reasonably well as we could.


Dr. Hume:     But what percent of the state budget is spent on health, a lot?


Gov. Chandler:     Not enough, not enough of course.  I donít know what the latest percentage figures are.  The education gets the most of course.  Theyíve been getting 63 and 64, 65 cents.


Dr. Hume:     ...what went on and whatís going on...


Gov. Chandler:     Now you ask whatever questions you want to ask.


Dr. Hume:     I think weíve covered most of the background. My basic idea was where did the idea for the U.K. Med. School come from and...


Gov. Chandler:     Yeah, it came from a survey (         ) financed.


Dr. Hume:     Now whose idea was the survey?  Can you trace it back that far?


Gov. Chandler:     Well, I think maybe one fellow there who was connected with the university, Dr. Brick Chambers.  Old Dr. Brick Chambers...Heís dead now, but he was a health doctor at the university, and well, thereíd been a great deal of talk around about a medical school in connection with the university.


Dr. Hume:     Well this is interesting of course, because as you know, Transylvania from 1890...


Gov. Chandler:     1960...thatís when it closed itís doors and I graduated there...1921.


Dr. Hume:     It was the prime school...


Gov. Chandler:     Oh yes, oh yes and I said to them, strange as it may seem, strange as it may seem we had a medical school in Transylvania and it closed itís doors in 1860, and of course ever since...I went to Transylvania in 1917, and I heard the talk about weíre going to get another one...I said...we didnít get it till a hundred years later virtually, you know, and we were (         ) of course.  It took a hundred years to do it.


Dr. Hume:     I thought there might have been some traditionalists in there that...


Gov. Chandler:     No I didnít think so, I donít think that had anything to do...


Dr. Hume:     ...facilities that...


Gov. Chandler:     Yeah, the need for it.  I was convinced, I told you about the children who were born without...Kentucky mothers who produced children...and no dentists...no adequate medical care, especially I say, in Eastern Kentucky, and up through this whole hill country up there.  It was a little better in other places.  Now Iím from western Kentucky.  I was born in Henderson County, but I told you at the turn of the century they didnít have much down there either, and...


Dr. Hume:     ...In general, would you say that from what you can see now, that Kentuckyís health care and education in health care is about on the par of the national level or are we ahead or behind as a result of all of this...Kentucky has a sort of a backward image sometimes, in some areas...where are we in...


Gov. Chandler:     Weíre rapidly making up the difference.  We are behind...we were way behind and one medical school at the University of Louisville wasnít going to put us ahead of anybody, you understand that.  But I say that this...weíve got a pharmacy school up here that was ranked about 5 or 6 in an independent survey and the dental school was ranked third, and I think the medical centers ranked at least 3rd or 4th now in the United States.


Dr. Hume:     Have you been over there as a patient?


Gov. Chandler:     Oh yes, yes.  Iíve been over there every way.  Every way, Mom and I been both over there, fortunately we werenít too bad off, and the dentists were wonderful and the doctors were fine, and our friends go over there and they call me and I always recommend those fellows over there because theyíre as dedicated as they can be, and I donít hear anything from people who use the center, except good, and I donít hear anything from the students.


Dr. Hume:     I may be getting off your particular (          ) here a little bit...do you think thereís any reason for the doctors at the medical center to have private practice or not to have private practice?


Gov. Chandler:     No, I donít think thereís any reason why they shouldnít have it, as long as they donít interfere with their (        ) cause after all you shouldnít ask a doctor with the knowledge and information and standing that those fellows have to come here and take a small salary, it is a small salary, the president only gets 36,000 so I take it that not many of them get any more than that.  I established the thing firmly that the president was supposed to be paid the most...and I think thatís right...and so I donít think thereís any reason why special services that are available to people shouldnít be on a volunteer basis...


Dr. Hume:     How about a big clinic arrangement like Mayo, just something...Can you visualize Kentucky having it develop out of U.K. or out of any other area?  Medicine (         ).  Do they appeal to you as a political...in your political instinct.  Does it make sense.  Is that what the people want...


Gov. Chandler:     The people want health services.  Theyíre not especially interested in the politics of it.  If they did want politics...because I say I suffered over it, because of it, and I didnít make the political issue.  To me it was a health issue.


Dr. Hume:     I just wonder if we as physicians hear so much about what the people want and we sort of hear that they want a change in medical care.  I just wondered if you thought that...


Gov. Chandler:     Oh yeah, over here theyíre organizing now and young Dr. Roach is in charge of it, Dr. Ben Roach, whoís our personal physician here in this country, a family health service.  A family...Iím awfully strong for that.  Thatís what we had in the country in the early days, and I used to drive the doctor with...one horse (         ) and drive him in the middle of the night.  Those old doctors got up and went all hours of the day and night, you know, and you used to carry the horses cause you went through the mud, you went through the mud to take the doc...but I canít imagine anything better than to have at a given moment the services of a skilled physician when a fellow is sick.  When heís sick he wants that,  I think in our days he ought to have it...oh yes...oh my.


Dr. Hume:     You think that people would be satisfied to go to a clinic arrangement or to a health maintenance organization which is the big thing we hear about...or would people really want their own doctor to come to them more.


Gov. Chandler:     Well thereís never going to be any time I think when the people wouldnít like to have their own doctor and like to have him come see them if they can pay for it, you see...but if that canít be done at a given moment, why I think nothing can be better than to have clinics where theyíre available to the people, and where people can go and where they know they can go, and get some skilled medical attention.


Dr. Hume:     Let me phrase it another way.  If you were the governor now, and you were setting up something to combat this...we keep hearing about this mal distribution in health care...the people in the mountains canít get out here...people in small rural communities, what would you think of...Iíll throw that out at you.


Gov. Chandler:     Just like Dr. McCormack used to...he started it with the health department in each country.  What do you think he did that for?  And he had only one doctor...a county health doctor...and he had a little office there, county health unit and he had some medicine there, and he had a nurse there, a county health nurse.  He had a county health nurse...and Dr. I told you we were last.  Why, yes Iíd have it and then Iíd have a clinic, Iíd have a clinic and together the county and the state and the country can ay for those things.  They havenít done it and oh I tell you I think itís a crime.  I think we got the graveyards full of people that ought not to have died, at least not when they did and oh, how that hurts me, that hurts me all my life and as I said we suffered that ourselves, and when you suffer that yourself...my brother died and Iím just as sure that he wouldnít have to die, but...


Dr. Hume:     Did he know that he was sensitive to...


Gov. Chandler:     What was that?


Dr. Hume:     Did he know that he was...


Gov. Chandler:     No, no he didnít know, he couldnít have known, and of course what are you going to say after your brothers dead and Iím talking about 1947 or 8 and the doctors in Ball State Hospital, state hospitals at (            ) and I know they didnít deliberately kill that boy, but they killed him.


Dr. Hume:     He died at how old?


Gov. Chandler:     About 20 or 30.  He graduated with honors down here, and I told those fellows down there one day, I said ďMy brother graduated here, and heís not here anymore but he graduated with honors and he was interning.  He was married and had a child that he never saw, a child born after his death, he never saw him...I say that was a great tragedy, it broke my fatherís heart, and I said no, no, (             )itís an improvement over my friends Dr. McCormackís county health department.  Iíd have an enlarged thing, a clinic you know, and Iíd have as many of those as were necessary and I would have them staffed and I would have medicine, and all the latest medicine that the people know about.  Wouldnít cost too much money to do that, and it would be money well spent.  I canít imagine.  Iíve traveled all over this commonwealth. I know more about...I suspect than anybody living or dead.  Iíve been in all corners of it.  Iíve seen all sorts of conditions of our people.  Iíve stood by and watched them suffer and at a given moment nobody could do anything for them...Wasnít anybody there...thatís a terrible thing, and I (      ) that and I havenít contributed to it and Iím not going to and I think a doctor of all people who spoke explicitly take the other side of it, supposed they hadnít built a medical center over here.


Dr. Hume:     There would be a lot of empty spots, wouldnít it?


Gov. Chandler:     Well, even suppose you try to do it now. (              ) fortune, but if you dally...he who dallies is a bastard and he who doubts is damned.  You know it and I think (              ) Shakespeare said better than everybody, ďOnce itís done tis done then twere well it was done quicklyĒ, and I never hesitated if I thought what I was about to do was in the public interest and in the public welfare, I never hesitated.  I donít have to answer for that, but I never have understood, in fact I donít understand now...and Iím not running for anything now...land Iím not going to run for anything, and the people of Kentucky been better to me than Iíve deserved and they donít owe me anything so Iíve nothing now except to tell you  the truth and to tell  you that as I understand it, and as I observed it as it passed under my observation.


Dr. Hume:     Let me...I think Iíve got my answer on the medical school...let me just ask you a couple of questions that arenít medical at all...just cause you were here...youíve got a lot of knowledge Iíd like to get at...what have been the greatest thins that you have seen done in your administration or in our lifetime in Kentucky.  What really has been achieved that youíre proud of, what hasnít been achieved that youíre not proud of, in other words as you sort of look back at what your doing, forget about health care or medicine and donít think of me as a doctor for a minute, but what really are some of the things that youíre proud of or some of the things that you wish you could have done.


Gov. Chandler:     Well doctor, there are things which you always wish you might have done, and the things that you have done, you wish you might have done them better, you know, but when I went to the Governorís office in 1935 I was just 36 years old...Iíd been for 4 years Lieutenant governor with a fellow that was a stranger to government.  You know the capacity of the people to electrify to public office one that ought notí to be elected.  Theyíve got perfect genius for it...You just wouldnít believe it, and some of these fellows Iíve seen elected not only didnít know but didnít give a damn, you understand, so if you get the combination why itís deadly.  I made up my mind when I went to the governorís office that I was going to reorganize the state government of Kentucky, form top to bottom.  Well, we did it, and it was so successful and the record will show other states copied it.  We cut the boards and commissions down from more than 130 to 23.  13 of them were required by the constitution.  Well then theyíre required by the constitution there isnít much you can do about it.  And we havenít got a bad constitution.  I have helped defeat several efforts to change it, which would not have been in the public interest, at least I didnít think so, so I opposed it, and the people not because of me, but because of their own good judgment.  Theyíve been slow to change the constitution.  We live under the constitution of 1791...92, and it was not a bad one, itís a pretty good one.  And...but when I went there in 1935, we owed about $30,000,000...Well itís prohibited in the constitution to have the state in debt more than $500,000, unless you vote for it.  So I was shocked, I said (                ) you know, how do you go about putting the county people in debt when the constitution says you canít do it.  Well the court of appeals said there wasnít a debt, but there was evidence of debt, but we owed the money, and of course the other side of that of that is if we donít pay people wonít do business with us, and then if we do business with them, they add 25 to 30% to the price of what we buy from them, cause they know theyíre not going to be paid, they know theyíre going to take a (             ) Well there were warrants issued against casual deficits.  Well I was very lucky, I went to Washington to find out if I could find some fellow that was expert on taxes and government, and the fellow told me up there he said, ďWhat you come up here for Governor.Ē  I told him, and he said, ďWell, why donít you go back home, you got a fellow at the university that knows more about that than anybody, the University of Kentucky.Ē  I says ďIs that right?Ē  He says ďYes sir.Ē  Well thereís always some smart fellow somewhere if you just can find him, you know, so I was trying to find him you know and itís Dr. Martin, Dr. James Edgar Martin.


Dr. Hume:     Right.


Gov. Chandler:     Dr. Martin...I came down here, and I got Jim Martin.  He went down and I said, ďJim, I want to reorganize this government from top to bottom, and Iíll name you 25 or 30 fellows and you go over the whole thing and it will take 3 months.  Go over the whole thing with them and tell me what we can take out and tell me what we can put in if we have to, and give me a complete reorganization bill, and then Iíll call the legislation in an extraordinary session and that will be the only think may say so myself everybody says now that was one of the finest things that was ever done, but we did it, and except for the fact that they whittled on it and hacked on it and changed it...they havenít bettered themselves and (         ) Our next thing was, I said, ďWhat are you going to do about this billĒ $30,000,000 at 5%?  ďWell,Ē I said, ďletís refinance itĒ.  Of course (                  ) so two or three of the bankers said to me ďWeíre sorry governor, but weíll not go along with youĒ.  ďWell,Ē  I said, ďIím sorry, but Iím going to reorganize it, Iím going to refinance it and Iím going to offer you 3% more so take your 5% or (                 ).  I didnít tell them then, but I meant to go, and I did.  I went from 5 to 3 and from 3 to 1 and then paid the thing off, and I said the state of Kentuckyís credit ought to be good.  We ought not have to pay 5%.  That was a whole lot of money then.  Not now, but a whole lot of money then.  The interest charge on the bed was one million, five hundred thousand a year, before we spent a single cent for the health and welfare and education of our people, interest charge, I never liked that.  The school per capita was six dollars per pupil.  I made it 12.  I doubled it...I got sharp...I doubled it right there...after a fight, I arranged to go and get somebody to help me with that, so I got one set of fellows to help me over in Ambush and they helped me, so then the bank called me and said...Iíll never forget...ĒGovernor, weíve decided weíll go with youĒ.  I said ďuh-uh.  Iím going to pay you.  I have made arrangementsĒ.  I said when youíre warrants are due, you send them in and Iím going to pay,Ē but to make a long story short at the end of four years we had cut the debt from &30,000,000 to $4,000,000 and had the money in the bank to pay it off, and I told the people in a speech to the legislature, I said if you let me reorganize the government, and refinance the state debt and prepare a careful budget Iíll not overspend the budget...Iíll under spend the budget.  I will come to the legislature in 1938 and say to you to say to the people through you, that weíre out of debt, we have no increase in taxes, none anticipated and that youíve got a decent government.  I also said to the legislature ďYou have fixed it so that I can be the governorĒ and indeed youíve taken any excuse away from me that...(             ) a good governor...youíve taken any excuse that I might have for not being (        ) I also told them that, I said if I had to make an excuse now, Dr. Hume, I say I wouldnít have any, because youíve done exactly what Iíve asked you to do.  So in 1931 I faced the legislature and I said well, our books are balanced.  Weíve lived within our income.  Weíve doubled our appropriations for school children.  We brought 3 textbooks.  We built country roads, and if I may say so I built more roads for the people of Kentucky than all the other governors from 1792 to the present hour and all of them are free.  Governor Colsky once tried to build a toll road, and we got (             ) by the United States and only one of them is paying for itself...and while I was...during two administrations, we under spent our budget and lived within our income and paid our bills...discounter bills...we took ten days discount...just like you would in any other business, and when I left there in 59, I said, we got cash in the bank and no debts.  Now we owe over $2,000,000,000.


Dr. Hume:     %2,000,000,000?


Gov. Chandler:     Yeah, over two billion, but I wouldnít...the constitution is still there.  The constitution says you canít go in debt over $500,000, unless you vote for it.  I practiced it carefully and frugally.  In other words, the governorís got a right to ask for emergency funds.  I never asked for more than $500,000 because on the theory that the governorís got...if you canít go in debt more than $500,000 the governorís got no business having a 3 or 4 million dollar emergency fund that defeats the purposes of the constitution.


Dr. Hume:     With all this did you ever have the wish that the constitution didnít limit you to one term?


Gov. Chandler:     I have feelings about that...I think itís too short for a good governor and too long for a bad one.


Dr. Hume:     Thatís true.  It sounds as if...is your momentum going...


Gov. Chandler: If I could have kept it on but they were good to me that year because they elected another lieutenant governor and I went to the United States senate...and of course this is unprecedented and I like to say this, because when you realize that from 1929 to 39, thatís a ten year period, I was a state senator, and lieutenant governor and governor and a United States Senator and I donít expect thatís been duplicated any place in the United States...I donít know.


Dr. Hume:     When you become senator you were still a young man werenít you?


Gov. Chandler:     Yes, about 39.


Dr. Hume:     39


Gov. Chandler:     Yes, just old enough to go...yeah, yeah, and so this experience though in the governorís office and I have undertaken to detail important things that happened during that first administration.  Now the Courier Journal has never been...well theyíve been both ways...Judge Bingham was for me when I ran the first time, and then Rosen took his board away from...then they came back, and then the last time I ran they gave me the best treatment that I ever had in my life and of course for that I was very grateful, but they said that my performance on the television and undertaking to tell them what the state situation was a virtuoso performance and was way out and beyond anything these other fellows (             ) have to be elected.  But I ran because I thoroughly disapproved of the characters and conduct of (        ) I tell you another thing that...


Dr. Hume:     What about local...what about the national political climate and the local political climate, whatís happening?  Where are we going and why?


Gov. Chandler:     Look here.  Hereís another think that I wanted to mention to you in connection...well itís difficult for anybody to forecast where youíre going...


Dr. Hume:     When you started to mention whatís happening in the Kentucky arena...and I wanted you to ease in if you would...comment about the just political...whatís happening to lawyers, to the practice of laws to the political process, is it being perverted some way or subverted or is it as viable as it used to be?


Gov. Chandler:     No, I donít think so. Iím distressed of course as anybody would be and I donít think itís just because Iíve been here a long time, just because Iíve been involved in it a long time, as you can observe...Iím past the age of statutory senility, but Iím not senile, and my recollections...


Dr. Hume:     No youíre pretty young.  Let me ask you how old you are?


Gov. Chandler:     75.


Dr. Hume:     Are you really?  Youíre pretty vigorous.


Gov. Chandler:     And my recollection of things as I go along is real active, and with all the things that theyíve undertaken to do, and I know what I was going to say to you, just recently they put that second amendment back on the ballot, and (          ) sections of the legislature, ..Well that question was on the ballot in 1969 and section 256 of the constitution says expressly that when a people defeat an amendment it canít go back on the ballot for five years...well they put it back in four.  Now, why the members of the house and the senate should practice a fraud on the people of Kentucky, and it went on the ballot, and only two of us that had been in politics in my lifetime opposed it, John Brown, John Young Brown Senior, and your humble servant.  We went on the television, on the radio and spoke against if of course, and first I canít understand why they would submit it.  In the face of constitutional prohibition that said ďyou just canít...they donít pay any attention to it.  The thing...the point Iím making now is if the constitution says expressly this you shall not do, they do it, and they donít pay any attention to it.  They raised every bodies salary down there during the term for which they were elected.  Thatís expressed in the constitution as being absolutely prohibitive.  You cannot do that and the legislature has overwritten one veto of the governor in the last ten years.  That veto...(              ) and that was in defense of their own pay raise.  And they raised their own pay, that was the legislature, three times in the last ten years.  Close that door, partner, will you . . . But the only time theyíve ever written the governorís veto in the last ten years was when Nunn vetoes their pay raise.  And now they get $400. a month . . . expense account for which they do not have to account for . . . each month, and they only meet annually.  Well, there isnít any excuse for that at all.  They meet 60 days every 2 years.  If thereís a public emergency, the governor can call an extra ordinary session.  The business community which is entitled to some consideration waits (      ) for three months to pass, cause theyíve got to make plans and they donít know how to make plans with the legislature in session.  Well, after the three months have passed, well, they can breath easy at least for a time.  The governor can call an extra ordinary sessions if he needs them for a public purpose, and the public would let them know, you understand.  Nebraskaís so much smarter.  Old man George Nice in Nebraska was so much smarter and I served I the United States senate with him.  They only have one house in Nebraska . . . 35 members . . . thatís enough . . .25 would be better, but we got 138 . . . and I told them . . . I told the people on television, I sand John Brown and I probably know more about the legislature than anybody living or dead . . . I said . . . weíve served in it . . . weíve presided over it . . . weíve dealt with it, you know, on the local level and on the national level . . . now I said for gods sake donít do this because 10% and that may be high of the legislature will do the business of the legislature, 15 or 20% of the others . . . 30 maybe will go along one way or another and try to (          ) 50% of them wonít give a damn and they donít care whether they lie or not and they just as soon be someplace else and they wonít vote and they wonít read a bill . . . I say why should . . .


Well (          ) got up a constitutional convention and I was the only one who opposed it when he got through . . . I was a member of the convention

(          )presiding over it and they were going to rewrite the constitution and I said ďuh uh, no good,Ē and not solely for that reason, but the people beat it.  They got suspicious of it, well one thing there, and Iíll show you a sample of it Ė a corporation in Kentucky at the moment can hold all the land necessary for the conduct of its business.  It can hold it forever if its necessary to the conduct of its business.  But once that land is surplus and is not necessary to the conduct of its business, he can only hold it for five years, and then heís got to get rid of it and make it available to the people.  Well they wanted to get rid of that.  I cab envision a time . . . theyíre not making any more land, making a lot more people, but no more land, appreciably. I can envision a time when the corporation would control all the land and alienate it from the people and thatís what they want of course, but I didnít want it, and the people didnít want it . . .Well that shows you to what extremes theyíll go to try to get things done that ought not to be done, and so in two administrations, I, at the governorís place, you learn a great deal, about your fellow man and about . . . suffice it to say, we lived within our income during all that time.  We under spent the budget.  We avoided debts.  I donít think the government ought to collect any more money from you that isnít necessary for public health or public welfare or public education.  A great many of things that theyíve undertaken the government hasnít any business to be there at all.  And, we did all that too without the sales tax.  I was always opposed to the sales tax, because the sales tax is an income tax turned upside down.  Itís a total tax on the average fellow, and when you press down the crown of thorns on the brow of the fellow that has to spend all of his money for...and doesnít have much left for ulxories, and if he hasnít got enough, heís going to get it from you...heís going to get it somewhere you understand...and so...I have a strong theory thatís correct...taxes ought to be levied, and collected at a time and in a manner that would cause the least inconvenience to the people.  They ought not to take a single cent and there oughtnít to be any state surpluses or government surpluses...money, what for...take the money from the people, so some fellow down there can spend it at his whim and caprice and for something that youíre not interested in...maybe never, and not in the public welfare maybe.  These fellows got control over a lot of money that they could just spend according to some whim or caprice of his own, do you understand.  Thatís not right, and so we did our lot, that I am telling you about, without the sales tax, now they said, and I say they said we couldnít operate the gambit without the sales tax.  Well now we got it, and now weíre two billion dollars in debt.  Now whats the other side of that?


Dr. Hume:     Can you use the surplus to pay off part of the debt?  You could, I guess.


Gov. Chandler:     Well they sonít do it, it wonít do it.  If I had the surplus Iíd give you a tax relief...no sales tax...automobile license plates for five dollars...I thought that that was enough, you understand.  They just brought the poor automobile over as a debt.  They bumped him everywhere they could bump him.  You donít turn him over and bumped him again...you know...it was horrible, but these people are tax gatherers.  They donít need their arms to be Lincolns, you know, my god.  They urge to collect taxes, they urge to raise pay, they urge to spend money at the peopleís expense...itís a horrible thing that weíre going.  Now weíre doing that not only here, but weíre doing that on a national level too, and the government of the United States owes $45,000,000, and of course stupid fellows like Barkely, he used to be there.  Heís one of the stupidest men I ever saw.  He said we owe it to ourselves.  He says (              ) and I say suppose some day we decide to pay ourselves, you know, it would break every bank and every insurance company in the United States, and then break all those who had government bonds...you understand.  Theyíre absolutely break all those who had government bonds...you understand.  Theyíre absolutely stupid.  They had no sense of...no intention.  Now, if you and I are in business or if we buy something...we go over to the store and buy something...we may buy it on credit, but we think that say in 2 months or 3 months or 4 months we can pay it off, and we have an idea on it, well they donít have an idea about ever paying it off at all...and they donít have...they can add and subtract...they donít know how to add and subtract, they can just multiply.


Dr. Hume:     What about the idea of morality, is it gone from...


Gov. Chandler:     Itís gone, virtually gone...


Dr. Hume:     The administration doesnít look very good.


Gov. Chandler:     Oh no, oh no.  They havenít got the same old-fashioned...they donít believe in the old fashioned principles of common decency and common honesty, no sir.  But thatís not so of politicians, thatís so of the rest of the people too.  No better or no worse.  Bankers or doctors, or our business men are the same way, and I tell you itís frightening, itís just frightening.  At this stage of the game, getting to be 75 and having a nice wife, and four nice children, and 12 grandchildren and one young child...great grandchild, and conducting my own affairs just like I have the...peopleís business, and being able to save anybody...I donít owe anybody anything except my good will, and I could withhold that it I wanted to, and payment (        ) debts and the taxes, my daddy did the same thing.  Itís a question of old-fashioned honest...principles of old-fashioned common sense and common honesty and common decency.  If you repeal those, then where are you going, and they donít give those much consideration or much concern.


Dr. Hume:     I guess thatís a family breakdown problem and a (            ) problem.


Gov. Chandler:     Itís both.  My daddy...well, you learn that from your father.  Yeah, you learn those things from your father and from your grandfather, and we didnít have a lot of things, but we...we...nobody gave us anything...and we were proud...we worked...we all worked hard...worked hard, worked real hard.  Look it here.  Isnít this most remarkable.  Just sit there where you are, and take a look.


Dr. Hume:     Yeah, thatís a lot of muscle.


Gov. Chandler:     75, (           ) You donít know anybody over 75 thatís as (           ) as Iíve been and thatís because I worked hard...when I was a boy, and no whiskey, no cigarettes, no fast-living.  I never put in for that you know, never put in for that, and thereís some reward for...I think so, I think so.


Dr. Hume:     Well, of course...everybody says that every generation...itís a changing world, but it doesnít see to be a very pleasant one, at the moment.  Things are getting out of pot...out of...


Gov. Chandler:     Oh no, no, no, I hate to say it...I thought maybe it was because maybe I was getting to be an old fogey, but I donít think so.  You know to the country if thereíd been no fellows like me, you know...the old timers you know, but thatís not necessary...either a reason or an excuse for the breakdown but generally there seems to be...figure out some way to beat somebody out of something...or use some sort of gimmick to get ahead of somebody.  I told my wife when (        )


Dr. Hume:     Well I appreciate it, I think Iíll zip along.  I appreciate your time.  I hadnít intended to spend more than an hour with you.